Mind If We Talk?: How to Stop Doomscrolling

Welcome to Episode 6 of Mind If We Talk?

Mind If We Talk? is an original podcast created by BetterHelp and Acast Creative Studios. Hosted by licensed therapist Haesue Jo, this 8-episode series takes a grounded, therapeutic approach to some of life’s most relatable mental health challenges. Each episode features candid, two-part conversations exploring topics like imposter syndrome, grief, procrastination, and setting boundaries. With warmth, clarity, and professional insight, Mind If We Talk? creates space for honest reflection and emotional growth. Whether you're deep into your self-growth journey or just starting out, this show offers comfort, connection, and practical tools for healing.

Episode 6: How to Stop Doomscrolling

The world can feel overwhelming, especially when you're constantly bombarded with distressing headlines. But what happens when your empathy becomes a source of anxiety, guilt, or helplessness?

In this episode, therapist and host Haesue Jo sits down with singer-songwriter David Archuleta who gets candid about the emotional toll of doomscrolling, the pressure of staying informed, and how coming out helped him see the world, and himself, through a new lens.

Later, Haesue is joined by Sarah Close, a licensed professional counselor with BetterHelp, to explore the psychological impact of consuming distressing news and practical strategies to protect your mental health without turning away from the world.

If you've ever felt emotionally drained by the news, or struggled to give yourself permission to unplug, this episode is for you.

HAESUE:

We live in a world that never shuts off and it's hurting our mental health.

A 2025 poll from the American Psychiatric Association found that 67% of US adults report feeling anxious about current events happening around the world. For many, that can result in doom scrolling, the sense of being glued to scrolling social media on your phone, even if you really aren't liking what you're seeing.

Harvard Health calls doom scrolling an insidious threat to our minds and bodies driven by a cycle of nonstop negative news that our brains can't easily escape. That's a familiar cycle for today's guest. David Archuleta is a singer and songwriter who began his career at just six years old. He rose to national fame as a finalist on American Idol, and in recent years, he's become just as well known for his honesty, especially when it comes to his mental health and his queer identity. For David, the internet has served as a safe space to find community and be himself, but it's also become a real source of stress. 

In this episode, David opens up about how the weight of the world, through constant news and social media, has impacted him physically and emotionally, and how caring deeply can sometimes feel like a burden. He talks candidly about doom scrolling, burnout, identity, and he delves into the unique, at times challenging position, of being a public figure, facing pressure to speak up online in just the right way. These issues don't have easy answers. 
Ultimately, online spaces can be safe spaces even when your day-to-day environment isn't supportive. But striking the right balance of healthy online engagement can be difficult. As you'll hear, these are challenges that David, like many of us, is still learning how to navigate. If you've ever felt powerless in the face of the news or if you've found yourself scrolling for hours on end, or if you've felt like your empathy is pulling you under, I think you'll find something here that resonates. After my conversation with David, I'll be joined by Sarah Close, a licensed professional counselor with BetterHelp. She and I will talk through some research backed ways to disrupt the doom scrolling cycle and how to care for your mental health in a world that rarely slows down. Let's get talking.

HAESUE:

Hi David.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Hi, Haesue.

HAESUE:

So I imagine we've all kind of heard this term floating around a lot. In fact, I was just talking to a friend the other day asking them, what are you up to? We were planning to go out, and the friend had responded, oh, I'm just sitting in bed rotting doom scrolling. And for somebody that's never heard that term, I imagine a lot of guesses could be made, but I was really curious about you. Are you a doom scroller? What does that, what does that mean to you? Tell me about your relationship with news-related anxiety and doom scrolling.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

I think, unfortunately, you go and open up a social media platform, whether it's Instagram or YouTube or Twitter, X, TikTok, you can just go and it's, you know, I'm a little bored, like, let me get some stimulation or see what's going on. I'm kind of curious or want some entertainment. And you don't really have control [over] what comes up. You just go on the “For You” page, the the main feed that comes up and you start scrolling and it'll give you all kinds of different things. 

HAESUE: 

The algorithm. 

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Yeah, the algorithm. It adapts to what you stop and react to, whether that's, you react and respond to it positively or negatively. And I had to learn that the hard way, that it doesn't just give you stuff that you would like to see and that you enjoy. It gives you stuff that may be shocking or may be stressful, but regardless because you're reacting to it and still watching and kind of, even if you're watching in horror or like in disgust, or in annoyance, it sees that you react to it, so it'll keep giving you things that you react to.

And I've realized that you can get addicted to things that you don't even like. And so you start doom scrolling because it could be a combination of puppy and cat videos, and then the news comes on, and then a shocking video, or pranks or relationship couple stuff. And it's all these different things that it's feeding to you to just keep you on. And you just open up your phone, you're, oh, just for a few minutes and then like several hours have passed and it's like one in the morning and it's like, oh my gosh, I need to be up in the morning. How did, where did all that time go? And now I'm feeling all these emotions that I can't relax. And so, to escape the things that I need, I'm technically supposed to, work-wise, I need to be worrying about and thinking and making decisions on. I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to disconnect from the world and disassociate and just open up my phone and start scrolling. And it's a way of escaping. But then once you're done scrolling for a couple hours or like an hour or 30 minutes or whatever, your problems are still there and it's like, oh, I still need to, you know, get my laundry done or I [still need] to make myself food. And it's kind of interesting how addicting it's become. You

HAESUE:

Said some interesting things about getting addicted to things that you don't necessarily like. You mentioned [the] concept of escapism, escaping the reality of something that's distressing or something like that. The news related anxiety that perhaps you have experienced. You mentioned news cycles being something that's being fed to you quite often in these feeds. How has that shown up in your life, or rather, how has that affected you?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Well, news, I feel like particularly now, at least amongst my friends and me and my family, we've noticed that news has been a lot more in our face. And, I don't know if it's just the age I've gotten to, but I don't think it is. I think I've seen, regardless of age, people I know are very aware of what's going on in the news and in politics and in the world. And a lot of people are extra stressed out about it to the point where it's so discouraging to see how polarizing it's become that you don't really know how to even dwell amidst it. And I, I was talking to some of my friends and like, we, we even started talking to each other. It's like, are you okay? It seems like the news gives us one thing after another to be stressed about and be like, oh no, now this is happening.

And oh my gosh, you won't believe what just happened next and how are we gonna get through this? And look at all the people that are being affected in negative ways. And a couple weeks ago I was doom scrolling and I was looking at all the new stuff that was going on and all the politics and people have different opinions and you're just kinda like, what am I supposed to do about this? Like, okay, I'm, I'm aware now and I'm stressed out about it and I'm concerned and I don't know what else to do other than just be concerned.

HAESUE:

It sounds like maybe you've felt a little bit helpless after seeing some of this stuff.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Just talking to even my friends and my family. Like what can you do other than feel helpless? Like what are you, what do you do? 

HAESUE:

What have you noticed in particular, watching some of this content, that triggers you specifically into this state of feeling concerned, stressed, maybe helpless even?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

I think when I see how, when you're given world news, and they're talking about very heavy political things and fights between countries and how the people are being affected in said countries and even in the country that we live in and how that's being affected and you're just kinda like, that makes me really sad. That makes me really concerned. Like some people think, well, this is for the better and some people are like, no, this is wrong. And depending on where you're from, depending on your beliefs, your ideologies, what is considered good and what's considered bad changes. And I've lived in different parts of the US and I lived in Tennessee for eight years. I've lived in LA for two years. I lived as a missionary in South America and Chile for two years as well. And to see how like within a country where you live, what information you're given changes and what matters and what's important also changes.

I also [try] to be mindful of everybody. Sometimes [when] you start over, you care too much. It's confusing. It's, it's, it's hard and it's like I may have my own personal views on things, and I do find them important and they may differ from people in my family, or some of my friend groups, or people from where I used to live. And sometimes it's like, okay, I guess the best thing is just to keep quiet. But then it's like people are like, well, you're a public figure, you're supposed to use your platform. And then it's like you do a little bit. For example, like I'm part of the community. I came out a few years ago and depending on where I am, people's opinions change on what that means. You know, when I came out and I'm like in a certain part of the country, like people are like, well, does that mean you're turning your back on us?

And I'm like, you know, that's interesting. Why do you feel that? I'm just trying to be honest about what I've dealt with since I was a little kid. Being queer. So basically like, basically all my life. And for some reason sometimes people think you have an agenda because of that. And I'm like, well that's interesting. So you see how some people's narratives will change. And then, well, I try to just speak up and be myself and like advocate for saying, hey, just so you know, like, I'm here. This is what I go through. And other people like me go through this too.

HAESUE:

I'm hearing that your coming out journey has been a really, really big part of your story and I imagine it's still part of your narrative. It's something that I imagine you're still going through in a, in a certain sense of that concept. As you know, and as you've actually kind of described right now, part of this community is often marginalized in this country. And I'm wondering how your identity has played a role in your own news anxiety.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

I grew up believing queer was something that you just chose. And if someone chose it, there must have been something that went wrong. And it's like, actually this is something I tried to choose not to be this for nearly all my life. And, and my mom was like, well David, just so you know, I love you, but this is wrong and I can't accept this about you. And I said, mom, you don't have to. I get that it goes against what we believe 'cause I still believed it for the most part. And I said, up until a week ago, and I don't need you to accept it, I just need you to respect that I'm making the best decision for me right now because I was starting to really spiral down into a really dark place and I'm in a much better place now.

But, and I was like, you know what? This conversation worked with my mom. It worked with some of my friends. Maybe if I just have more of this conversation openly the way I did with them, it'll turn out good and people will be more understanding. And as I did that, I realized people are not. Like my mom loves me and she knows me and she's patient enough to talk to me, not everyone's parents are as patient as my mom was with me. It's where I realized since coming out, I've looked for people I can relate to that it's like, oh, they get what it's like to go through what I'm going through right now. 'cause I'm like, you know, it wasn't easy to come out, and I didn't know if people were gonna accept me or if even if my own family and my own friends were going to reject me.

So you start looking online for a safe place. And I didn't know who to talk to. 'Cause some of the therapy that I was going to sometimes was very specific to the area that I lived in. So when I tried to talk about it with a therapist, it was kind of the view of, well this is a, it seems like this is a choice you're making. Let's figure out why you're making this choice other than, I'm trying to choose to not be this way for decades. And I think I'm not being understood and I feel like your personal views are affecting what I'm trying to help you understand. So, it was actually a reason why I was scared 'cause I didn't know who would see me as a normal person rather than as a problem to be fixed for being. And that's actually why I started using BetterHelp because I saw an ad and it was, it seemed like more affordable. And also I was scared to go into my community 'cause it was a more conservative community, that I think was still learning about what it meant to be queer. And so I was like, I wanna talk to someone without feeling like I'm gonna be judged.

HAESUE:

Sorry that happened to you in the first place.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

No, it's, it's okay. And I found someone who I was able to talk about things without feeling like I was being interrupted. 

HAESUE:

What are some of the actual effects of news related anxiety in your own life? Have you ever felt like there's certain things that you enjoyed doing that you kinda lost pleasure from, or weren't able to get the same kind of engagement with?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Yeah. For example, like a month ago, I used to go to the gym. The gym was like a new thing that helped my mental health, my physical health. I was having back problems and my back problems went away because I was strengthening

HAESUE:

Strengthening your back.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Yeah. And all the muscles that supported the back muscles. So it's all connected. And when I started doom scrolling and seeing everything going on, that was like, you need to be worried about this. Look how horrible the world is turning out to be 'cause everything's going wrong. And you might lose, the safety that you have right now could, could be taken away at any moment.

Look, it's being taken away from these people in that community and these people over here. And to the point where it's like, I shouldn't be happy. Look at everything that's bad that's going on. And I stopped going to the gym and I was just laying in bed. I'd get up if I had to do work, if I had to go somewhere, do a meeting, do an interview, go to a writing session, go record, and I would immediately go back to bed. And I was like, I usually go to the gym. And I just, sometimes you're just like, I just don't care, 'cause I feel so deflated right now. You just kind of wanna hide. Like you just wanna go in a bubble and be sad. Because it's like you, you get affected by seeing other people who are hurting, who are scared. And it's like, I really don't know what I'm supposed to do about it.

HAESUE:

Yeah. You have a level of empathy and when you see people suffering, it kind of brings you into that space of suffering, of staying in bed, staying away from people, staying away from anything really. So, um, I see you today, David, you're not in bed and you're doing a lot of things now. So I suspect you got yourself out of this funk. And so I'm curious if you'd be willing to share what you did, how you approached this, to get out of it. If somebody else is out there really struggling with being inundated with gloom and doom, unable to do anything, what are some suggestions you have for them? What has worked for you at this point?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

I think I've really had to work hard. I mean, even this morning, I'm not gonna lie, like it was very hard for me to get up this morning and yesterday. And I think sometimes it's like, hey, what am, how am I going to get motivated today? And so sometimes you just kind of say, well, I'm gonna get up and see if I can brush my teeth. But there have been times, like even the last month, I usually brush my teeth and there've been times like I don't even brush my teeth, which I usually do. And I'm like, I just don't feel motivated and I don't know why. 'Cause it's, I don't know why that happens. Like why do you leave and lose motivation for basic self-care?

HAESUE:

I'm just thinking that you've described an experience as probably very common for a lot of people that getting inundated with all of this news, a lot of it not so great feeling can lead to behaviors changing, not being as motivated to do stuff that used to make you feel really good. So that's a very common experience, but I suspect that a lot of people hearing this, that are going through that, are now asking, so now what? So how do I get out of it? How do I get back into the gym? How do I start enjoying my life again?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

I think I had to let myself fumble for like a month before I finally found myself having the energy to get back into a rhythm. I was going once a week to the gym. About give or take. I was just like, you know, I'll go even for just 20, 30 minutes, I was not lifting the same amount. It's like my body just didn't have the same strength that it had had before. And, that's when I realized like, man, like your emotions of what you're going through, what you take in can really affect your strength. And I noticed there are other people, like I would watch, I was looking at some other things. People are like, you know what, it's not about feeling like doing it, it's just about the routine and discipline to just do something regardless of how you feel.

And I was like, oh, I'm like, I would love to be able to say that. I would love to be able to have that mentality. And I would tell myself that and it's like, hey, it's not about feeling like it, it's about just going. I'm staying in bed and it's like, am I weak to weak that I, I let my feelings take over compared to these other like gurus that are saying, you know, just go and do it. And I'm like, nah, nah, I want to, I want to feel that I want to, I see myself getting up and going to the gym and my body's right here.

And sometimes you feel like people are counting on you to do your part and do your work. And like, as a musician, like people and going to perform, like people come to your shows to escape. They tell you that. They're like, there's so much going on in my work and there's problems at my home and in the world. And like being able to just come to a show one night and come to just escape for a little bit is so nice to just clear my head and just feel the healing power of music.

I'm used to doing this, but at the same time it's hard to feel motivated to do it because you're so, you're so sad, you know, about everything going on.

HAESUE:

Yeah. You questioned like, how did I let all this stuff get to me? So if people have had that thought too. I just kind of wanted to reframe that a little bit. It sounds like somebody that a lot of stuff gets to them is a sensitive person. A sensitive person is not a weak person, [they’re] somebody that's attuned to the world around them. So that's not necessarily a bad thing. 

I'm also hearing you [have] to balance and navigate two lives here, right? One is as a public figure, there's a pressure for you to perform and to produce something, to provide something. At the same time you're a person, you're an individual and you're also having struggles of your own. You mentioned feeling mentally weak and that leads me to my next question. Actually, BetterHelp just released a state of stigma report that talks about how 25% of the US sees people who seek out therapy or counseling as mentally weak, as you said. And it's actually according to this report, honestly higher for Gen Z at 37%. So I'm wondering how or have you ever felt that mentality getting to you when it comes to some of this day-to-day anxiety? I know you already alluded to it, so it's kind of a leading question here. Would love to hear more about how that mentality of somebody seeking therapy is seen as mentally weak. Has that ever gotten to you?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

You know what, that's so interesting and to see the statistics rising as well. There was a time, even just a few years ago, where it seemed like mental health was more positively received and going to therapy was a positive thing to talk about. And it's almost like people got tired [of] it or glazed over because even myself, like I was more frequently going to therapy at the time and now I'm like, oh, it's a waste of money. Even just a few years ago I was like, totally, I was advocating, I'm like telling my friends, you should go. It's really helpful to the point, like even myself personally, I wonder what the shift was in society, because I was like, well, if I go back to therapy it means I'm broken again. Like all that therapy was a waste.

Or like, really, where did I put my money? It didn't help me strengthen. I should be able to figure things out at this point. It is interesting to see that, like, I think the general shift in energy has gone to being more skeptical about mental health and talking about it again. And it's almost, I think it's also, I feel like society has gotten a little tougher and it's gotten a little more, it feels like it's a tough environment now. Even on social media, it's gotten harsher. Like there are a lot more negative comments and for a while

HAESUE:

You happen so quickly too.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

It did.

HAESUE:

This era you're talking about where it was a little bit more open and softer and accepting to be talking about mental health, seeking therapy. That wasn't that long ago. I'm gonna guess I'm quite a bit older than you, and I've now been in this field long enough to see this thing change. You know, when I first entered the field, nobody was talking about therapy. And then we experienced this era that you're talking about, and now we're here talking about these stats. This thing that you talked about, I went to therapy and I have to go back. I’m still broken. Did it not work? It's an interesting mentality that some people have adopted about it because when you think about medical care, I stubbed my toe and I sprained it the other day or whatever. This is just an example.

I go to the doctor, get it mended whatever, and later, a couple weeks later, I have a pain in my foot, [I’m] going back to the doctor. Seen as some kind of weakness. Like, oh, I didn't get enough healing from the first time. My foot is so weak, my foot is defective, [and] my foot isn't good enough. Nobody bats an eye when somebody says they have to go back to the doctor 'cause a foot is still in pain after they already received treatment. So I kind of thought of that and I hope people can start to seek out therapy similar to you going in and out of it when you need [it]. It's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that the previous time or the first time wasn't effective. Just means we're people in a constant state of motion. We're kind of like water. We're still water all the time, but always in motion, always moving.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

That is interesting 'cause I think even physical, you know, my family, and maybe that speaks to why also financially I'm scared to spend money on myself, or something because even physical health doctors, that wasn't a thing. One of my parents didn't want me to, didn't want any of us to go to the doctor. Oh, it's a waste of money. There's too many other things to be worrying about like bills and our day to day food and whatnot, that it's like, we don't have time to go, until there was one time where I was having such bad stomach pains. My mom was like, regardless, we have to go to the doctor. Like, I don't care. Like even if it's a lot of money, we have to go and it turns out like I had appendicitis, but we thought it was just like a stomach flu or something.

And then if I had waited any longer, it could have gotten really bad, 'cause my [appendix] had already ruptured by the time we decided to go to the hospital. And I think sometimes that's how it is with mental health. It's like, it's a lot of money and, oh, I already tried to fix it or I can fix this on my own. I should be able to fix it. And I don't know why it's shifted back to that because for a while it was like, it's okay to, but now it's like, ugh, the mental health stuff. Like oh [you’re] so weak and oh well, you know, just figure it out yourself. And I think it's like in the last year, year and a half, that that shift happened because I fell into it myself, you know?

HAESUE:

So as you're continuing to figure it out, figure out how to manage your stress and anxiety, what are some of the things that you're doing to help that process along?

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Yeah, but I've literally been just checking in with my friends, like, hey are you okay? And they're like, not really. I'm sorry you're feeling that way. And I was just talking to one of my friends a couple days ago, she was like, everybody I know's been feeling like this. And especially musicians, everyone's just like, what the hell's going on? Why are we feeling this way? So I was like, okay, I'm not the only person, but it seems like a lot of people are feeling this way. It was even hard to reach out to one of my friends. It didn't just happen like, hey, how are you? We were all together for a birthday and I'm like, I almost didn't come. I'm not gonna lie. I was like, but I came for you because I wanted to celebrate you and your birthday. And my friend was just like, oh my gosh, I didn't want to come myself. I was like, really?

And that's how it opened up. It was just like the end of the night, the last two minutes, before we spent. And I was like, but I'm glad I came. because it's nice to be around people. And to let yourself go. But I think it's hard to be vulnerable and have those conversations, because you feel like it's an environment right now, where you feel like if you're vulnerable, you're very easily targeted right now. And it makes you really reluctant to wanna be vulnerable. 

But I mean even this conversations like with my friend or with you right now, with my sister, when it's like you finally decide to, it's like, oh, I forgot how good that felt, and how much I needed that to kind of like unravel all the stress that I'm just building up right now. 

HAESUE:
I can very much appreciate someone still being on the journey of being able to identify and articulate in a really explicit way how they're able to hold space for gloom and doom because it is the reality around us. And somehow foster excitement, motivation, drive to continue to do the things that are a bit more active in our lives. So I really appreciate you sharing your perspective and where you are in your journey and I think you probably have helped a lot of people feel seen today. I don't think it's usual for everyone to have the answers. I asked you pretty pointedly what are you doing to manage your stress and anxiety? And I think your response was very very real, very genuine. I'm not really sure. But what I did hear is that you're continuing to stay connected to your friends, your community. And I think these are great suggestions for people, even if you don't have a solution, just knowing that you're not alone in the experience that other people are sharing this with you, that connectedness of people around us, that is part of the beauty I think of life and being human, is that we can share pain, and somehow that makes it a little bit less painful when you are not the only one carrying that burden. So thank you so much for being here, for sharing your insight and your experiences.

DAVID ARCHULETA:

Thank you.

HAESUE:

This is an ad by BetterHelp.

In this episode, we are hearing how doom scrolling, constant news, and identity struggles can leave you feeling overwhelmed, isolated or stuck. First from David Archuleta with his willingness to be very open on the topic. And next, with our expert guest, Sarah Close, here's a quick reminder for our listeners that therapy can help you sort through those feelings, especially when it's hard to know where to start. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you deserve. Visit better help.com/mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/mindifwetalk 
So much came up in that conversation with David. He opened up about how overwhelming the world can feel, how hard it is to sit with news-related anxiety, identity stress, and the pressure to speak up or stay silent. He spoke about losing motivation, isolating, and even feeling guilty for trying to enjoy life when so much around him feels heavy.

These are experiences I hear all the time as a therapist, and while they don't have simple fixes, there are ways to process them. David's story reminds us that being sensitive to the world isn't a weakness, it's a sign of being deeply human. So, let's take a moment to explore some of the patterns we heard in David's story and bring in another therapist. Joining us is Sarah Close, a licensed professional counselor with BetterHelp ever since doom scrolling really spiked in 2020, Sarah has been working with people who feel stuck in those cycles of being glued to their phones, empathy overload, and identity related anxiety. Together we'll share some grounded, research-backed tools that can help when it feels like the world is too much. Let's get into it. 
It's great to see you Sarah.

SARAH CLOSE:

Good to see you too.

HAESUE:

Thanks for taking the time to come talk to me. David talked about getting very sucked in by social media even by content he doesn't necessarily like, which is very relatable. Is that something that you see often, and what do you think is happening psychologically in those moments?

SARAH:

Yeah, such an important question and topic. I think as you said, it definitely impacts a lot of us. I'm pretty sure the term doom scrolling came about during the 2020 pandemic, when a lot of us were kind of glued to our phones, really seeking out information about cases, numbers, what we can do, what's going on, and kind of finding ourselves trapped in that spiral. But absolutely, I think all of us can be impacted by this experience of doom scrolling and, unfortunately it does feel like the world is kind of wired to keep us addicted, or keep us connected to our phones. And so I think the first thing I like to at least start with is just a little bit of acknowledgement that it's not because we are bad or broken, that we're getting this poll to look at our phones or get sucked into something that we don't really even care about the world or these kind of algorithms. And the people that are creating these apps are actually really working hard to make sure that they keep us connected. I don't necessarily assume that [they] all have negative intent, but that's definitely something I like to start with with my clients. There's all sorts of reasons why we might be grabbing our phones, but I think it's important to be able to check in with what we're asking, or what we're needing, before we do that action to see if there's some other way we can maybe get that need met.

HAESUE:

I think you're hitting the nail on the head there. You know, David mentioned opening his phone just for a few minutes, or wanting to open his phone just for a few minutes, check this little thing here and there, and suddenly he realized he had lost a bunch of hours, a bunch of hours had passed since he picked up the phone. Why do we do that? And what are some ways people can recognize when they [have] fallen into that kind of dissociative scrolling loop?

SARAH:

We live in a world that is full of distractions, but in reality, the world is more and more stressful. And so we do need more reason, more ways to check out.

Dissociation is a trauma response, initially, that is meant to help us be able to check out from difficult, stressful situations and it's actually a really protective quality that we have within our brains.

And so if we're noticing that need to numb out or to dissociate or check out and we find ourselves zoning out on our phone, it's a really good opportunity to check in with ourselves and see again, is there something I could look back on in the moment before I picked up my phone or the moment before I started scrolling that I can check in and notice like I had a need in that moment. I was feeling a need to not be here, to not be in my body.

Is there anything else I can do that might be able to satisfy my need with a more nourishing activity? Sometimes it could be something as small as instead of being on my phone looking at the news, which I know maybe doesn't make me feel good, I could choose to watch some of my comfort TV shows. It still may be binging, it's still may be doing something that overall I don't wanna do long-term for, it's not totally sustainable for all of my main goals in life, but it is something that's maybe not gonna make me feel as terrible. And from there we can kind of continue to create potentially different ways to stop that momentum of picking up our phone and choosing something that can be even more healthy in those moments.

HAESUE:

Great tips there. And I wanted to clarify and get a little bit more information about this word we're using. I asked you about what's going on when somebody engages in this kind of dissociative scrolling loop, and I'm wondering if you could give a little bit more information for those that don't know what that word is, maybe a definition or how you would define what it is to dissociate.

SARAH:

Yeah. I really like talking about it as a protective mechanism that our brain kind of creates for us in order to create distance from life, often distance from ourselves. So imagining being in a very stressful situation, it can be the case that our body kind of needs us to be able to shut down and numb out or not be fully present for that experience, because we have that experience of it being too much. So we're feeling that kind of overwhelm, that overloaded experience, and our body's ability to cut ourselves off from taking in every moment-to-moment experience of that can be so protective for ourselves. So it's a really protective measure that we have and it can be such a safety net for us. Of course, we don't wanna always be in a state of a dissociation, but I think it's helpful to start from that place of knowing that it's trying to do something good for us. And if we notice that we've zoned out, we can then kind of check in and see if there [is] anything we can do to get our needs met, maybe do something nourishing for ourselves because our body just tried to basically shut down in order to get through something stressful.

HAESUE:

You know, you mentioned that a lot of this activity that we're kind of referencing has come about since 2020 or so. I suspect there's been different waves of a global experience of feeling like there's some kind of impending danger, and knowing so much on one hand it's like, okay, great, I'm informed. On another hand it's like there's so many things going on that I can't really do anything about. And when you can't do something about something, then I feel like this level of concern just continues to grow because you can't do something as an outlet for this level of concern. What might you suggest to someone who's deeply empathetic but emotionally flooded by everything going on in the world?

SARAH:

I'm so glad you and David got to talk about this. I think it's something that really needs to be talked about more, because a lot of us are experiencing varying degrees of flooded. I mean that can look different for each of us depending on how sensitive we are and depending on how much news information that we're taking in and taking to heart. I think the first thing that we talk about is again, that sense of acknowledgement that this does not mean that something is wrong with you. Being able to acknowledge that I'm feeling flooded or I'm feeling stressed and overwhelmed by what's happening in the world, [it] sounds like David was able to acknowledge that that's a huge brave step in [the] direction of making a change. And you also talk about actions. Actions don't have to be big. We don't have to change the world.

I think the difficulty with reading these news stories is even if we're not super compassionate, open-minded, open-hearted people, they can really grab at our heartstrings and make us feel like we need to change the world. We need to be able to save the world. How do we stop this? But there are very small things that we can do to help give us that sense. Like you mentioned, a pressure release valve of taking an action. Basically we're by consuming all of this information, we're kind of continuing to feel that helpless feeling. And helplessness is one of the hallmarks of trauma. So when we're in a traumatic experience, our autonomy is taken away. We aren't able to do something to get ourselves out of it, which causes that experience of trauma to live on in the body. And so if we are triggering that experience of helplessness by reading the news constantly, it's really our duty to be able to find something that we can do to give ourselves a little bit of relief from that, and remind ourselves that we're not completely helpless, that we can do something even if it's small, to get out of that flooded response state.

Now as far as what that looks like, I think it can be different for everybody. Of course, depending on your means, it might be that you have some time and you can research some volunteer opportunities, maybe write an email or a letter to a politician. I know I've worked with some clients that feel really comfortable donating $5 to [an] organization or a cause that really matters to them when they're feeling that overwhelmed state. But also, something that we can do for ourselves, is going to help overall, because if we're able to reduce our feeling of helplessness and give ourselves some compassion or self care by maybe taking a walk around the a block, finding some things to be grateful for in your life, taking a large drink of water, kind of getting up and doing some gentle movement, these things that we're doing for ourselves to take a break from that experience of helplessness is actually growing our capacity to be able to show up to those issues we care most about.

HAESUE:

We also talked about this experience. I think a lot of us have also gone through, something bad is happening to somebody or a group of other people. And because I'm always aware of this, it's hard for me to engage with my own life and feel happy about good things that are happening to me because I feel guilty. And often this can come from somebody that is, you know, big hearted, that has a lot of compassion for other people. I'm wondering how can we help anybody or how do you help someone have these different feelings at the same time?

SARAH:

Yeah, I think when we're talking about being able to hold two opposing, or seemingly opposing emotions like guilt and joy, we're talking about developing a sense of emotional complexity. And in reality that's how emotions really show up. I think we all have memories that include people or experiences that are no longer with us. And so there's that sense of them feeling sad. Maybe there's a little bit of grief that's still present, but we can still find a little bit of space to smile about something that happened in that memory. I'm imagining the scene, which maybe some of you have seen from Inside Out where Joy and Sadness are able to intermingle on the memories, and it's so profound. It's easy to see that outside of ourselves, but once we're actually in an experience of feeling a lot of grief and sadness, it can be really difficult to contend with that experience of joy or gratitude because on some hand, on some level it almost seems like it would discredit the grief or it makes us feel like we're not grieving well enough.

And that's a judgment that I would love to just work on keeping outside of the emotional space. Emotions are very complicated and we can't tie them down, just like we can't hold onto a joyful moment forever, even if we want to. We shouldn't be able to hold onto a grief or a sadness experience forever because that's not the reality of emotions, they continue to move.

I'll just say too, I think maybe a lot of us have heard this concept of you can't fill from an empty cup. And that really makes sense when we're talking about, these are issues that are going on in the world that show that you care, which is beautiful. It's a superpower that you have if you are noticing that you're feeling guilty or even debilitated by what's happening in the world, we can acknowledge that that's coming from a place of compassion and that you care. And we can't, we can't continue to show up for those things that we care most about if we're completely depleted. And unfortunately, our experience of guilt and maybe depression or or difficult emotions can keep us in a state of helplessness and keep us in a non-actionable space. So joy or gratitude relief, any of these potentially more uplifting experiences we have can create a little bit more room in our cup so that we can show up and give to other people or causes that matter.

HAESUE:

Motivation, self-discipline. These are things I actually talk about pretty often with my clients, kind of get them to define what the differences [between] those two things are. And most of the time, people are able to conclude self-discipline is about doing something even when you don't necessarily want to. Motivation is often just the drive to do anything. And oftentimes, people that are experiencing depression or depressive symptoms are saying, I want to want to, but I don't even want to. And I think that speaks very deeply to motivation being stuck in a rut. And for those that are unfamiliar with the origin of this phrase, I'm stuck in a rut, [if] you think about a wheelbarrow that goes in the same path every single day in the dirt. Eventually the wheelbarrow is gonna create a path for the wheel because you've gone the same way all the time and it gets deeper. Sometimes it's difficult to take the wheelbarrow out of that path that's been created 'cause you did the same thing all the time repeatedly. So that's where that's coming from. I'm stuck in a rut. I can't get out of this path that I've almost forged for myself in a way that I don't necessarily want anymore. How do you help someone navigate this? How do you help somebody get out of a rut and find a place of motivation again?

SARAH:

Yeah, well that image is really helpful here. I think because just like the wheelbarrow in this rut, it didn't carve out this deep rut immediately, it took time. And so the same thing is true for getting out of it. So remembering that we can't run a marathon tomorrow most of the time, most of us at least wouldn't be able to. We need to incrementally take steps to get to a goal. And so, if we're able to identify a goal, which is I'd like to get out of this rut or I'd like today to feel different than tomorrow, that's a huge step, right? We're actually starting the process of starting to create a little bit of initiative and momentum in a different direction. And the key information that I work with, with clients is that tiny is totally fine. So we're talking about very small incremental steps, just like the slowly moving dirt away to create a path for our wheelbarrow, we need to slowly start to move some dirt away and be able to change our environment.

So if there's maybe a day where we can not only get out of bed to use the bathroom or get something quick to eat, but we can actually also wash our face or maybe we can open the window today.

These small acts that we do, they give us permission to see that we're not just living in the exact same environment we were in yesterday. And that starts to open up our brain to the idea that we're not going to just be stuck. We're gonna actually be able to make these small changes that contribute to the momentum that's gonna get us out of this rut.

HAESUE:

Sometimes it's difficult to navigate. Is this something I can handle on my own? Would it be beneficial to me to reach out to somebody for support? So in your professional opinion, at what point do you think it makes sense for somebody to consider seeking help, figuring out if this is something more than just stuck in a rut a little bit?

SARAH:

Yeah. Tough question to have to ask and a tough question to answer. But, I think mainly the toughness comes from the fact that everyone has a slightly different tolerance level for our ability to acknowledge what's going on in our lives and then be able to use our coping strategies and get through them. We have history with maybe going through similar things and so we can kind of pull on our resources and experience there to be able to tell ourselves if we can get through this okay. But in reality, what we're looking for often, and I think what therapists tend to pay attention to is if we're able to get our basic needs met, if we're able to perform the functions that allow us to show up in the world, in our life in a way that really makes us feel the most engaged in our lives, that goes for all facets of life.

So, you know, it could be the case that we're performing really well at work, but then we come home and we aren't able to show up in our family life or our home life in the same way to these other people that really matter to us or we don't have a social life and we're only focusing on fitness or these other kind of elements of life. So there's often an experience of imbalance and if we're able to acknowledge that and then decide that maybe we wanna change that, it could be really helpful to seek some support. I think also, especially when we're talking about the experience of maybe struggling to get out of bed, struggling to be able to show up in our lives, in any sort of healthy way, or do the things that we know would help us feel better, that is a really great opportunity to see if there's any options that we might have to seek some support maybe from a trusted friend to be able to talk about this or seek therapeutic support can be really, really helpful because often when we're in that space, we are probably not treating ourselves very well, not just physically, but also mentally.

And sometimes having a therapeutic support or friend can create just enough self-care and loving compassionate space to be able to give ourselves permission to find that love for ourselves as well and start that momentum.

HAESUE:

David said he didn't know who would accept him after coming out, so he started looking for a safe place online. What advice do you give to people trying to find or build a supportive community when they feel alone or maybe afraid of rejection?

SARAH:

Wow, I'm really glad that David brought this up. I think a lot of people can maybe lean in when he speaks like this. Especially when we're in a maybe experience of contending with a part of our identity, who we are, and having that desire to build some community around it is wonderful. I think that's coming from a place of not wanting to live in an isolated kind of echo chamber within ourselves, but a desire to actually be validated, by another person, by a group of people who see us. So it's a very brave step to be able to acknowledge that that's something that we're seeking. And of course there's also, he mentioned the fear of rejection and shame and all of these things that can kind of hold us back. I think it also starts small when we're talking about building community.

It's not usually the case that we have an instant village that we built overnight. Some people might get lucky, but for a lot of us it starts with maybe one, one safe person. What we're doing is we're trying to find gentle open doors that feel safe for us, and often online at least we have the opportunity to look for some of these groups based on shared interests and values. Maybe community groups locally or online forums. And it can start with just finding one safe person that you feel comfortable opening up to and allowing that to be potentially a door open to building other relationships and building community.

HAESUE:

It's really difficult to be upfront and honest with other people, period. And oftentimes being upfront includes a level of vulnerability because we're getting real about how we actually feel about something, which can be scary because of this fear of rejection from that other. But if you can't even be honest with yourself, then it's gonna be ever more challenging to be honest with anybody else. So whether that's therapy or some other means for someone to do some introspection and get to know who they are as a person, I think that's actually one of the foundational things to being able to be vulnerable with somebody else is just being able to be vulnerable.

When you're alone, can you say to yourself how you feel about something? If you're having a hard time even identifying or articulating that to yourself, that might be a good time to consider talking to somebody, whether that's a professional person or somebody that you deeply trust to be able to have this kind of dialogue with or an introduction to that. So Sarah, thank you so much for your time. This was insightful, helpful for me too. And I'm wondering if you have any other final thoughts on this very huge question, dealing with that combination of doom scrolling and existential anxiety that can come with being online.

SARAH:

The one thing that I like to talk about a lot with my clients when we're approaching something that maybe isn't going super well or serving them super well in their lives, something like doom scrolling or habits around our online behavior. I love to start with the question of what positive intention might this behavior be attempting? And so it's easy to maybe try to demonize our behavior and we can kind of try to judge it and focus more on like, this is a problem. I need to find a way to get this, you know, surgically remove this from my body and my experience. If we can't get to a place of not judging ourselves, then we can't really have a conversation about how to change. So really starting there is, is essential.

HAESUE:

Thank you for your time and your wisdom today.

SARAH:

Thanks Haesue. Great to talk about this really important topic.

HAESUE:

I want to give a big thank you to better help for their passion behind this project and for giving us a platform to champion the wellbeing in all of us. Mind If We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp and hosted by me, Haesue Jo. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and share with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life. And remember, your happiness matters.

“Mind If We Talk?” is intended for entertainment and education, not from mental health diagnosis or medical advice.